Preamble

The House met at Half past Two o'Clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions — EMBASSIES AND LEGATIONS (INFORMATION SERVICE)

Mr. William Shepherd: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the number of persons employed at Embassies and Legations engaged on information services; and the total annual cost of such work.

The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): The number of persons employed at Embassies and Legations and engaged on Information Services is 1,235, made up of 236 United Kingdom based and 999 locally engaged. In addition, there are 1,088 persons employed at Consulates and other Posts, of whom 120 are United Kingdom based and 968 locally engaged. The total of 1,967 locally engaged staff includes part-time workers and 530 employed on subsidiary duties, on messenger, cleaning and similar duties. The total annual cost of such work at overseas Posts, including operational charges, is £1,470,062.

Mr. Shepherd: Does not this figure show an enormous increase in the charges compared with before the war, and is the Minister satisfied that we are really getting value for this money expended overseas?

Mr. McNeil: I cannot answer that without information about the charges before the war. I should imagine they would show an increase—almost all costs have. This year we have had a reduction of some £447,000. I do not say that the cutting has ended there, but overall our information services give Great Britain a good return.

Mr. Vernon Bartlett: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that most of these officials are doing an extraordinarily valuable job of work, and are working very hard indeed, and that it is important that the British point of view should be put before the world?

Mr. McNeil: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comment, particularly as his point is so apt, and he so qualified to make it.

Mr. Tolley: Can the right hon. Gentleman state how the figures compare with the figures before the war?

Mr. McNeil: Not without notice.

Mr. Anthony Nutting: Can the Minister tell us what amount in these figures represents an increase in pay, and what represents an increase due to taking on increased staff, compared with before the war?

Mr. McNeil: I am sorry, but my mental arithmetic does not extend to that.

Mr. Shepherd: Can the Minister state whether this expenditure is additional to the expenditure incurred overseas by the British Council?

Mr. McNeil: I should imagine so.

Oral Answers to Questions — GERMANY AND AUSTRIA

Control Office Staffs (Pay)

Mr. Turton: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the circular, promised on 12th December, 1946, to deal with the ranges of pay of those temporary grades in the Control Office for Germany and Austria who were excluded from the benefits of the scales of pay then laid down, will be issued.

Mr. McNeil: We have now decided, in consultation with the staff representatives, which grades not previously dealt with should have their pay reviewed. The reassessment of individual salaries should be completed in a few weeks.

Mr. Turton: Will the Minister state whether the gist of this reply means that the circular promised a year ago, which was going to put all these salaries right, is not to be issued, and that a breach of promise has occurred?

Mr. McNeil: I do not think that would be a fair inference. The reply means that


those salaries appropriate for treatment will be dealt with. Nevertheless, I would like to admit I am not at all satisfied with the rate at which this decision has been taken.

Banned Organisation (Meeting)

Sir Waldron Smithers: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been called to an incident in the British sector of Germany over the banning of a meeting of the Cultural League for Democratic Revival in Germany in the British sector; and what protests are being made to the Soviet Government as a result.

Mr. Platts-Mills: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent the agreement made on the setting up of the Allied Kommandatura in Berlin extended automatic recognition to all such organisations as were already in existence and recognised; and whether the Kulturbund zur demokratischen Erneuerung Deutschlands was such an organisation.

Mr. McNeil: Order No. 1 of the Allied Kommandatura, dated 11th July, 1945, states that until special notice, all existing regulations and ordinances issued by the Commander of the Soviet Army garrison and Military Commandant of the City of Berlin, and by the German Administration under Allied control, shall remain in force. The "special notice" referred to in this order was, in fact, given under the Allied Kommandatura Order No. BK/O(47)16, dated 23rd January, 1947, as amended by Order No. BK/O(47)193, dated 30th August, 1947. Since the Kulturbund did not comply with these Allied orders, it was banned from the British sector of Berlin. Despite this fact, and a protest by the British Deputy-Commandant to his Soviet colleague, the Soviet authorities in Berlin held a meeting of this organisation on 26th November in a building in the British sector. A letter of protest was sent to the Soviet Commandant on 1st December. I have not yet been informed that a reply has been received.

Sir W. Smithers: May I ask whether His Majesty's Government intend to call the Soviet bluff and stop this sophisticated quibbling and prevarication?

Mr. McNeil: I do not subscribe to the hon. Gentleman's carefully chosen language, but we shall continue with our protests.

Restaurant Cars (Meals)

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why meals of an unnecessarily pretentious character served on the restaurant cars of trains in Germany carrying civilian relatives and friends of the personnel of Military Government are supplied free to those requiring them.

Mr. McNeil: Meals served in restaurant cars of British official trains in Germany consist solely of basic Army transit rations which are not pretentious. As these trains are run primarily for personnel entitled to free rations as part of their salary or of some overall payment covering food during the time of the journey, no separate charge has hitherto been made for meals taken by any passengers. A system of meal tickets, however, will shortly be introduced, for which a charge will be made to those not so entitled.

Official Documents (Leakage)

Mr. Blackburn: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the allegations by the ex-Chancellor of Austria that the contents of secret files of the Foreign Office were supplied to the Italian Government.

Mr. McNeil: The allegations made by the ex-Chancellor of Austria in his book "Austrian Requiem" have been closely and fully examined and we have concluded that the account given in his book is inaccurate. However, it undoubtedly refers to a series of leakages from the Embassy in Rome before the war, of which we have been aware. This leakage was the subject of an investigation in 1944, which revealed that an Italian servant, I regret to say, had been able to remove documents from the Embassy in Rome over a considerable period. This servant, apprehended after the war, admitted what he had done and stated that he had received considerable sums of money from the Italian authorities.
We also believe that Count Ciano was in the habit of boasting that he had a


source in the Foreign Office which provided him with the contents of secret files affecting Italy. It is thought, however, that this was the device by which Ciano sought to cover up the actual source of information, which we now know to have been the Rome Embassy. I perhaps should mention that Ciano gives a clearer account of the leakages in his book.

Mr. Blackburn: While I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer, may I ask him specifically to repudiate this repetition by a Communist Member of the Fascist insinuation against that very distinguished public servant, Lord Vansittart?

Mr. McNeil: I am indebted to my hon. Friend for giving me this opportunity to make a statement. I did think from reading HANSARD, that the attack was directed largely against the Foreign Service, particularly in the Foreign Office, and I am certainly glad to have this opportunity of saying that although we have made the most careful investigation, we are satisfied that no leakage occurred at this end but that this unfortunate and inexcusable leakage took place at our Embassy in Rome.

Mr. E. P. Smith: Would the right hon. Gentleman say what happened to the dishonest servant?

Mr. McNeil: I made most careful inquiries. We held him and questioned him, and I have no doubt that our language was not too tender; but he was an Italian national and we had no power to proceed against him.

Mr. Richard Law: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether our security arrangements at our missions abroad have been tightened up recently?

Mr. McNeil: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, a section of the Service is constantly engaged on security supervision. I do not think I need assure him that this particular leakage was stopped firmly a long time ago.

Exports (Sterling Payments)

Mr. Douglas Marshall: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why in the bizonal area in Germany the Joint Export/Import Agency has imposed a ban on the signature of further contracts for

exports where payment is in sterling; and what representations he has made in this matter to the Government of the United States.

Mr. McNeil: The American authorities in Germany have instructed their representatives on the Joint Export Import Agency not to approve further export contracts involving payment in sterling. Since all contracts requiring the approval of the head office of the Joint Export Import Agency must be countersigned by both the American and the British members of that body a certain number of important contracts cannot at present be proceeded with. This subject has been taken up both with the United States authorities in Germany and in the course of the fusion negotiations now proceeding in Washington. The difficulty will, no doubt, be removed as soon as these negotiations are completed.

Bizonal Economic Council

Mr. Dodds-Parker: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Länder in the British zone of Germany are required to obey instructions issued by the Bizonal Economic Council in Frankfort; and why the acting Regional Commissioner of Niedersächsen has not ordered the Prime Minister of Niedersächsen to make deliveries of potatoes to other Länder as ordered by the Bizonal Economic Council.

Mr. McNeil: The answer to the first part of the Question is, "Yes." I am advised that the Minister President and his administration are now making strenuous efforts to fulfil their obligations.

GREECE (NATIONAL DEFENCE CORPS)

Mr. M. Philips Price: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken by our military mission in Greece to advise the Greek Government on the necessity for special military tactics to deal with the guerillas and particularly for organising a system of home guards for the defence of the villages.

Mr. McNeil: The functions of the British military mission are confined to training and organisation; they do not give operational advice. The mission, however, have certainly urged the importance of


freeing the Greek regular forces from static defence duties in villages and areas which have been cleared. To this end a National Defence Corps is being formed.

Mr. Philips Price: Can my right hon. Friend say whether any results have been observed in consequence of this reorganisation which has taken place?

Mr. McNeil: I will confine myself to saying that we know that some 20 battalions have been formed and that a similar number is in process of formation.

Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that most members of the Greek Government are far better experienced in guerilla warfare than our mission is ever likely to be?

Mr. McNeil: Even if I agreed, I do not think the Greek Government would extend to 20 battalions.

SPAIN (BRITISH CHURCHES)

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that since the recent outrages against British Evangelical Churches in Spain, these have been occupied for their own protection by the Spanish police; and whether he will protest to the Spanish Government against such resulting practices as the closing of schools.

Mr. McNeil: I am informed that external guards have been placed on all British Evangelical Churches in accordance with the assurance of protection, given by the Spanish Government. No churches have been occupied by the police, and all services are being conducted normally. Protestant schools have not been open since the Civil War.

Sir Ronald Ross: Is not this police attention more likely to harass the British Protestant community in Spain than to protect it?

Mr. McNeil: That is not my information.

SUDAN (ANGLO-EGYPTIAN NEGOTIATIONS)

Mr. Thomas Reid: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if negotiations will be resumed to secure a much needed early settlement of

Anglo-Egyptian differences about the Sudan in the common interests of all three parties concerned, now that there are definite proposals, British and Egyptian, about constitutional development in the Sudan.

Mr. McNeil: The position is not quite as my hon. Friend visualises it. The Sudan Government, it is true, have endorsed proposals for constitutional development in the Sudan which resulted from a conference attended by representative Sudanese and by members of the Sudan administration. His Majesty's Government have welcomed these proposals. The Egyptian Government have informed the Governor-General of certain amendments which they consider should be made, and the Governor-General now has these amendments under consideration. In these circumstances, it would be premature to consider the immediate resumption of Anglo-Egyptian negotiations on the Sudan.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there will be no selling out of the right of self-determination of the Sudanese people?

Mr. McNeil: The assurances given by the Prime Minister and by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will not be departed from in any substance.

Oral Answers to Questions — FOOD SUPPLIES

Milk Distribution

Mr. Shepherd: asked the Minister of Food whether he has now considered the report of the Association of Municipal Corporations regarding the distribution of milk; and whether he intends to follow their suggestions that consumers and retailers should now be allowed to choose their own suppliers, with a view to eliminating the present delay in the collection and delivery of milk.

The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): This report is being studied in my Department. It has also been brought to the notice of the Committee on Milk Distribution who had already been asked to advise me on the specific suggestions referred to in the Question.

Mr. Shepherd: Can the Minister tell the House what his personal attitude is towards this report?

Mr. Strachey: I do not think it would be proper, in view of the fact that the official committee will report quite soon.

Mr. Granville Sharp: asked the Minister of Food whether he has now received the report of the Committee on Milk Distribution; when this will be made available; and what action he proposes taking to implement the recommendations.

Mr. Strachey: I expect to receive the report early in the New Year.

Tinned Meat (Horseflesh)

Mr. Gerald Williams: asked the Minister of Food if any meat bought in tins for human consumption contains horseflesh

Mr. Strachey: No, Sir.

Mr. Williams: Will the Minister give an assurance that this policy will continue, and that if it does not owing to difficulty of obtaining other meat, he will label horsemeat as such?

Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir.

Rabbits

Mr. Ralph Morley: asked the Minister of Food the reason for the scarcity of rabbits offered for sale for food in the shops during the past twelve months.

Mr. Strachey: Rabbits are scarce because the demand for them is so large, this year we have already imported from Australia and New Zealand half as much again as in 1938.

Mr. Morley: Will the Minister see that what rabbits are available go to the shops and not to the hotels?

Mr. Strachey: We will do our best.

Mr. Bartlett: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that another possible reason is that owing to the sorry state of the world rabbits are ceasing to breed?

Stocks

Mr. G. Williams: asked the Minister of Food if he will give the percentage increase or decrease in stocks of food held in this country at the most recent convenient date of 1947, compared with the same date in 1946 and 1945.

Mr. Strachey: Stocks of food and feedingstuffs in the United Kingdom, including those owned and controlled by my Ministry and those held by certain food

processors, manufacturers and wholesalers, were 18 per cent. higher at 1st October, 1947, than at the same date in 1946 and 19 per cent. lower than at the same date in 1945.

Milk Registration, Sutton Coldfield

Sir John Mellor: asked the Minister of Food why Mr. Bernard French of 77, Cremorne Road, Sutton Coldfield, was required against his will to register for milk with the Walsall Co-operative Society; why the food office ignored a doctor's certificate recommending T.T. milk for his baby; and why, notwithstanding unsatisfactory experience of the co-operative society's milk, Mr. French has been repeatedly refused permission to transfer registration of himself, wife and baby to the Midland Counties Dairy, which serves other families in the same road.

Mr. Strachey: When Mr. French returned home on demobilisation he had a choice of retailer and registered with the Walsall Co-operative Society which had supplied his wife with milk since 1940. So far as I can discover, he has made no complaint, and no medical certificate recommending the supply of T.T. milk has ever been presented at the food office.

Sir J. Mellor: Is the Minister aware that he has got his facts entirely wrong? May I ask him whether this gentleman was required to register with the co-operative society merely because his late mother-in-law had been a member? Is not that a fact?

Mr. Strachey: We have made most careful inquiries from the local food office since the question was put down and we are assured that the facts are as given, but perhaps the hon. Member will communicate with me further on the matter.

Major Legge-Bourke: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there have been several cases where a person has been allowed to change his retailer and go to the co-operative society, but when he has tried to change back again he has been unable to do so?

Mr. Sparks: Is the Minister aware that there are at present a large number of persons registered, against their will, with private retailers, and they are unable to transfer their registration to co-operative societies?

Mr. Speaker: We seem to be getting on to an old controversy.

Sir J. Mellor: In order to establish the facts I wish to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Potatoes

Mr. Shurmer: asked the Minister of Food, in view of the fact that most factory canteens, some British restaurants and catering establishments in industrial centres will be closed for at least four days at Christmas, if he will consider an increase in the potato ration for that week, to householders.

Mr. Strachey: I regret that supplies do not warrant this.

Mr. Shurmer: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware, in view of the small allocation of potatoes for families, that these employees will be away from the canteen, thus making a serious drain upon the small allocation?

Mr. Strachey: Certainly. I am afraid supplies simply do not make it possible.

Mr. Drayson: Is the Minister aware that there are a large number of people unable to use the facilities of the canteens and will he consider increasing their potato ration during the Christmas period?

Mr. Strachey: No, Sir.

Mr. T. Reid: asked the Minister of Food if he has any information as to how far potatoes lose some of their nutriment value if peeled before being cooked.

Mr. Strachey: If potatoes are peeled before cooking they lose slightly more soluble nutrients than they do if they are cooked unpeeled. I am told that it is not possible to give a generally applicable figure for the size of these additional losses.

Dr. Barnett Stross: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that underneath the outer covering of potatoes there is a tiny amount of first-class protein which is inevitably wasted if the potato is peeled?

Mr. Strachey: That may be so.

Mr. Ewart: asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that a potato shortage is imminent in Sunderland due to supplies being drawn from already declining stocks; that farmers in the district are

declining to sell; and what steps are being taken to ensure a steady supply.

Mr. Strachey: The supply position has improved since the end of the spell of cold weather which interrupted loadings and I have arranged to send extra supplies into the district.

Mr. Maclay: asked the Minister of Food whether he is prepared to make adjustments in the potato rationing scheme, as applied to fish friers, to meet the needs of Scottish fish friers, who have been accustomed in the past to sell a much larger proportion of potatoes as a separate sale than is usual elsewhere and who, accordingly, will suffer disproportionate hardship under the existing scheme.

Mr. Strachey: I am afraid that supplies will not permit it The practice mentioned is not limited to Scotland.

Mr. Maclay: Has the Minister seriously considered representations sent to him on this subject from the Scottish Fish Friers' Federation; and has he any hope of meeting their wishes?

Mr. Strachey: Very seriously, and from other fish friers' associations in England as well, but I am afraid we simply have not the potatoes to make a concession.

Mr. Henry Strauss: asked the Minister of Food what weekly consumption of potatoes per person, before and after rationing, he assumed when he estimated the reduction at 70 calories per person per day, and the calorie value of potatoes at 16 per ounce.

Mr. Strachey: If the hon. and learned Member will carry out a simple mathematical calculation, he will find that I assumed an average reduction in the overall consumption of potatoes of 2 lb. per person per week.

Mr. Strauss: How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile that with the figures he gave to the House on 24th November, which were 5.6 lb. and 3.25 lb., respectively?

Mr. Strachey: The reconciliation lies in the overall consumption, as against the domestic consumption. Both are estimates, but the reduction will be, we suppose, about 2 lb. per head per week.

Mr. Strauss: Does the Minister realise that that cannot be reconciled with the figures he gave to the House in the Debate?

Prices (Marking)

Mr. Collins: asked the Minister of Food if he will take steps to ensure that the duties and powers of local food committees are fully understood and carried out, and particularly with reference to the clear marking of controlled prices whenever a statutory obligation for such marking exists.

Mr. Strachey: It is the responsibility of the retailer, and not of the food control committee, to ensure that the maximum prices of controlled foods are displayed. If my hon. Friend knows of any case where this provision is not observed I should be glad to look into it.

Mr. Collins: I will send my right hon. Friend that information. Will he say, further, whether he is satisfied that these local committees pay sufficient attention to the needs of women workers who cannot shop during the morning hours?

Mr. Strachey: I think they do their utmost.

Nuts

Mr. Erroll: asked the Minister of Food what information he possesses regarding the retail prices being charged for nuts; and what steps he is taking to prevent a further serious rise in prices.

Mr. Strachey: Owing to the many varieties and the limited quantity of nuts available my Department does not keep records of their retail prices; and I do not propose to control the price of the very small quantity which has just been auctioned.

Mr. Erroll: As Brazil nuts are now costing as much as 7½d. per nut, does the Minister intend to do nothing about the matter at all?

Mr. Strachey: The supply available, which cannot be replaced for currency reasons at the present time, simply does not justify a control scheme.

Mr. Austin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that auctioneering of walnuts has been catastrophic because it has led to these nuts being entirely out of the reach of the pocket of members of the working class for Christmas?

Mr. Strachey: I realise the difficulties, but the supply is so limited. There was such a very small stock available, it simply had to be auctioned.

Mr. Norman Bower: It is not a fact that the retail price at which these nuts are being sold is three to four times as high as the prices at which the trade offered to sell if they were distributed through them?

Mr. Strachey: The trade was not in a position to fix the retail price.

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is the Minister aware that the pleas for control on the other side of the House are quite out of accordance with their theory of setting the people free?

Captain John Crowder: Can the Minister say what profit was made out of these sales?

Mr. Strachey: There is another Question on the Paper about that.

Mr. Norman Bower: asked the Minister of Food if he is yet in a position to state the price paid by the Ministry for the edible nuts in shell recently auctioned, together with the amount realised from the sale, and the profit which the Ministry secured; and if not, when this information will be available.

Mr. Strachey: On the information we have at present, the total realisation from the auctions is about £1¾ million, and the profit to my Department about £1¼ million. There are some small residual sales still to be made, but these should not make much difference to the figures.

Mr. Bower: Can the Minister say whether he intends to continue to exploit the public by making similar monopoly profits in future?

Mr. Strachey: No, Sir. This, unfortunately, was the end of the nut supply. What has happened is that we cannot, for currency reasons, replace them today. There is no question of going on with the procedure.

Captain Crowder: Can the Minister say whether it is the policy of the Ministry to make a profit on the sale of goods in short supply at the expense of the consumer? Is that their policy?

Mr. Strachey: No, Sir. The vast majority of the foodstuffs we sell to the


consumer are sold at a loss, as hon. Members know—that is the subsidy they have in mind. We were satisfied that there was no practicable and fair method of distribution for this small stock of nuts, except by auctioning them.

Fruit and Vegetables (Conditional Sales)

Mr. Sparks: asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that at Brentford Market retailers are often unable to get potatoes from wholesalers unless they also take expensive fruits and vegetables for which they have no sale; and what steps will he take to trace out and put a stop to the imposition of conditional sales at this and other markets.

Mr. Strachey: Where we can get sufficient evidence of such practices we immediately prosecute. I have had no complaints from Brentford, but if my hon. Friend can send me particulars of any which have reached him, I will gladly have them looked into.

Mr. Sparks: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the difficulty of obtaining such evidence because retailers are afraid that if they do come forward they will be unable to get further supplies? Would it not be possible to increase the vigilance of my right hon. Friend's representatives on this market to try to reduce this practice, which evidently does exist?

Mr. Strachey: I am very much aware of the difficulty my hon. Friend mentioned. We have just held a conference of enforcement officers in which we dealt with this question.

Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: Will the Minister send me a copy of the information in view of the fact that, although this market serves my hon. Friend's constituency, it happens to be in mine?

Mr. Strachey: Certainly.

Mr. Collins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this difficulty could be easily overcome if retailers were given a potato entitlement in accordance with the size of their business, and that this could very easily be arranged by adaptation of the tomato allocation scheme?

Mr. Strachey: That might solve this difficulty, but in our view it would create another and a greater one.

Illegal Dealing (Committee of Inquiry)

Mr. Edward Evans: asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware of the extensive black market in the sale and slaughtering of cattle and pigs in East Suffolk; and what means are being taken to prevent these illegal transactions.

Mr. Harrison: asked the Minister of Food, in view of the fact that the black market in table poultry is so well established that the industry's economy practically depends upon it, if he will take the necessary steps to enforce controlled dealings on the farms or abolish the present ineffective regulations.

Mr. Gallacher: asked the Minister of Food why, in view of the information which is already in his possession, relating to the names and addresses of people attending auction sales all over the country and purchasing fat and semi-fat pigs in large numbers at prices considerably above the controlled prices ruling in the grading centres, no apparent attempts are made to take action against them and thereby expose the black market activities which are implicit in such transactions.

Mr. Strachey: I have set up a small Committee, under the chairmanship of Sir John Bodinar, to inquire and report urgently on the methods by which livestock, poultry and meat, including pork, bacon and rabbits may he finding their way into consumption outside controlled channels; and to suggest remedies which seem to them suitable and practicable. The other members are Mr. Herbert Oliver and Mr. Donald Grounds.

Captain Crowder: Has the Minister asked this Committee to inquire into the number of horses which are being slaughtered for human consumption?

Mr. Strachey: That will be considered.

Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Are any of the members of this Committee from Scotland?

Mr. Strachey: I could not say without notice.

Wheat Imports

Mr. Sparks: asked the Minister of Food from what countries wheat was imported in 1938, 1946, and to the nearest convenient date in 1947, stating


the quantities received from each and the average consumption of bread per head of the population in those years.

A.—IMPORTS OF WHEAT: ANNUAL AVERAGE 1934–1938, CALENDAR YEARS 1938 AND 1946, AND JANUARY-OCTOBER, 1947.


Quantities (thousand tons).


Source of Supply.
Thousand Tons. 1934–1938 Annual Average.
Tons. 1938.
Thousand Tons. 1946.
Thousand Tons. January-October, 1947.


Australia
1,160·0
1,549,761
—
—


British India and Burma
142·5
219,856
—
—


Canada
1,935·0
1,441,526
2,885·7
2,965·0


Union South Africa and I.W. Territory.
3·9
—
—
—


Other British Countries
0·5
1
—
—


Argentina
800·7
290,533
111·5
358·2


Belgium
36·0
49,257
—
—


Bulgaria
17·1
686
—
—


Czechoslovakia
3·0
—
—
—


Denmark (including Faroe Islands
3·6
1
—
—


France
159·4
62,344
—
—


Germany
26·2
13
—
—


Hungary
7·2
—
—
—


Iran
4·2
—
—
—


Iraq
10·4
300
—
—


Latvia
2·9
—
—
—


Lithuania
14·8
—
—
—


Morocco
6·0
—
—
—


Netherlands
21·5
10,181
—
—


Poland
20·6
—
—
—


Portugal
14·3
—
—
—


Roumania
137·2
180,318
—
—


Soviet Union
268·4
477,155
—
—


Sweden
19·8
6
—
—


Uruguay
7·8
5,931
—
—


United States of America
200·7
790,264
392·4
336·6


Yugoslavia
6·0
2,875
—
—


Other Foreign Countries
1·4
310
—
22·4 (a)


Total
5,031·1
5,081,318
3,389·6
3,682·2


(Abstracts from the Annual Statement of Trade of the United Kingdom and from accounts relating to Trade and Navigation of the United Kingdom.)


(a) Other information indicates that this quantity was imported from Turkey.

B.—CONSUMPTION. No figures of bread consumption are available for pre-war years, so for purposes of comparison I propose to give figures for flour. The average consumption of flour in all forms, including bread, cakes, etc., per head of the civilian population, is estimated as follows:



1934–1938 Average.
1946.
Year to June, 147 (a).


Civilian consumption of flour in lb. Per head per year
194·5
221·3
219·1


In oz. per head per week
59·8
68·1
67·4


(a) The latest available figures of consumption are for the year ended June 30th, 1947.

Mr. Strachey: As the answer is long and detailed I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

Cereals (Argentina)

Sir William Darling: asked the Minister of Food, in view of the shortages of grain, what plans he has to acquire such foods as the £125,000 worth of crops being burnt in the Argentine owing to economic blockade.

Mr. Strachey: The hon. Member is apparently under a misapprehension. The burning of cereals in Argentina took place during the war when supplies of imported fuel were inadequate. I am purchasing all the cereals which I can obtain from Argentina.

Meat Supplies, Brentford and Chiswick

Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: asked the Minister of Food whether, in view of recent complaints by local butchers in the Borough of Brentford and Chiswick about the quality of meat lately supplied to them, he will call for a report on this subject.

Chocolate (Export)

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Food whether he will give a list of the countries to which manufacturers in this country are exporting chocolate, as from 1st January, 1947; and the total quantity of manufactured chocolate thus exported.

Mr. Strachey: Nine thousand five hundred tons of chocolate and chocolate confectionery, including exports to His Majesty's Forces, have been exported by British manufacturers to various countries between 1st January and the end of October. With permission, I will circulate a list of the countries in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. De la Bère: Excluding the Forces, does the Minister think it really right, in view of the central and vital fact that the people of this country are very short of food, that chocolate should be sent overseas to countries that have more food than we have ourselves?

Mr. Strachey: Yes, I think it is right, because the sale of this chocolate to dollar countries and other hard currency countries enables us to purchase very much larger quantities of feedingstuffs and other foodstuffs.

Air-Commodore Harvey: Can the Minister say what percentage of this chocolate went to non-hard currency areas?

Mr. Strachey: Not without notice. The hon. and gallant Gentleman will be able to see in the list to be circulated.

Following are the countries:

List of countries receiving exports of chocolate and chocolate confectionery from manufacturers in this country.


Anglo-Egyptian
Libya.


Sudan
Malayan Union.


Australia.
Malta and Gozo.


Austria
Mauritius and Dependencies.


Barbados.



Belgian Congo.
Morocco.


Belgium.
Netherlands.


Bermuda.
Newfoundland.


Brazil.
Nigeria.


British Guiana.
North Borneo.


British Honduras
Norway.


Burma.
Nyasaland


Canada.
Protectorate.


Ceylon and
Palestine.


Dependencies.
Peru.


Channel Islands
Philippines.


Cyprus.
Poland.


Czechoslovakia.
Portugal and Colonies.


Denmark.



Egypt
Roumania.


Eire.
St. Helena and Ascension I.


Ethiopia.



Falkland Islands.
Sarawak.


Faroes.
Saudi Arabia.


Finland.
Seychelles.


France.
Siam.


Germany.
Sierra Leone.


Gold Coast.
Singapore.


Greece.
Southern Rhodesia.


Haiti.
Soviet Russia.


Hong Kong.
Switzerland.


Hungary.
Tanganyika


Iceland.
Territories.


India.
Trinidad and Tobago.


Iran.
Turkey.


Iraq.
Uganda.


Italian East Africa.
Union of South


Italy.
U.S.A. Africa


Jamaica.
Venezuela.


Kenya.
Windward Isles.


Lebanon.
Zanzibar and Penda.

Biscuits (Exports)

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Food whether he will give a list of the countries to which manufacturers in this country are exporting biscuits, as from 1st January, 1947; and the total quantity of biscuits thus exported.

Mr. Strachey: With permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the list of countries to which British manufacturers invoiced about 5,000 tons of biscuits between 1st January and 11th October.

Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is not the slightest need for him to tell me to put further questions on this matter? I shall; I am not satisfied. It is a great scandal.

Following are the countries:


Aden.
Iran.


Arabia.
Jamaica.


Ascension Island.
Kenya/Uganda.


Australia.
Leeward Islands.


Bahama Islands.
Malta.


Bahrein.
Mauritius.


Barbados
Morocco.


Belgian Congo.
Nigeria.


Belgium.
Northern Rhodesia.


Bermuda.
Nyasaland.


Brazil.
Palestine.


British Guiana.
Panama.


British Honduras.
Peru.


British North Borneo.
Philippine Islands.


Burma.
Portugal.


Canada.
Portuguese East


Ceylon.
Africa.


Chile.
Portuguese India


Costa Rica.
(Goa).


Cuba.
Russia.


Cyprus.
St. Helena.


Dutch East Indies.
Sarawak.


Dutch West Indies.
Seychelles.


Eire.
Siam.


Falkland Islands.
Sierra Leone.


Faroe Islands.
Southern Rhodesia.


Federated Malay
Sudan.


States.
Switzerland.


Gambia.
Sweden.


Gibraltar.
Tanganyika.


Gold Coast.
Trinidad.


Honduras.
U.S.A.


Hong Kong.
Venezuela.


Hungary.
Windward Islands.


India.
Zanzibar.

Retail Allocations

Mr. Beswick: asked the Minister of Food upon what basis allocations of biscuits, breakfast cereals, canned fish, canned meat, syrup and dried fruit are made to the retail trade.

Mr. Strachey: These are all points rationed foods and, with the exception of dried fruits, retailers may purchase what they wish from wholesalers or manufacturers within the limits of their points capital. In the case of dried fruits, distribution to grocers is based on sugar registrations and to greengrocers on their prewar trade.

Bread Units (Rye Biscuits)

Mr. Skinnard: asked the Minister of Food whether he is now in a position to allow persons who are forbidden, on medical grounds, to eat bread, a more generous

rate of exchange of bread units for points with which to obtain rye biscuits.

Mr. Strachey: People who are forbidden to eat bread because of sensitivity to wheat flour are allowed to exchange nine bread units for 16 points, enough to purchase the calorie equivalent of their bread ration as rye crisp breads. If the application is made because a reducing diet is required, the exchange rate allowed is one B.U. for one point. If the hon. Member has any particular case of hardship in mind and will let me have particulars I will gladly have it investigated.

Mr. Skinnard: In view of the fact that three points have to be surrendered for every seven ounces of rye bread, does the Minister really think this is an equivalent?

Mr. Strachey: So I am advised.

Tea Ration

Mr. Longden: asked the Minister of Food if, in view of the strain on family needs and the approach of the Christmas season, he will grant some increase in the tea ration.

Mr. Strachey: I regret that supplies are not good enough to permit either an increase in the tea ration or a special bonus for Christmas.

Fish (Distribution)

Mr. Lipson: asked the Minister of Food if he is now able to state the result of the inquiries into the means to be taken to improve the quality and distribution of fish and to prevent waste caused through inadequate inspection at the ports and unsatisfactory packing.

Mr. Strachey: No, Sir. This inquiry covers a wide field and will take some considerable time. As practicable suggestions are made, they will be put into effect as quickly as possible.

Mr. Lipson: Is the Minister aware that many fish merchants are at present very dissatisfied with the quality of fish they have to offer to the public? As fish is such an important article of diet in these days, cannot he do something, through the national association representing fish merchants, to take immediate practical steps to deal with the position?

Mr. Strachey: I think that they are putting up suggestions to the committee; we hope that practical action will result.

Milk Consumption, Bermondsey

Mr. Mellish: asked the Minister of Food what was the average daily consumption of milk per head of the Borough of Bermondsey in the year 1935 and in the year 1947.

Mr. Strachey: I am sorry to say that there is no information about the consumption of milk in Bermondsey in 1935, and I do not think that the work involved in getting out figures for 1947 could be justified at the present time.

Black Market Offences (Penalties)

Mr. Parker: asked the Minister of Food whether he will seek powers to increase the penalties for black market offences to include imprisonment for a first offence, minor or major, with a corresponding increase for further offences.

Mr. Strachey: The powers already provided by law seem to me adequate, authorising, as they do, imprisonment up to one year on summary conviction, and penal servitude up to fourteen years on conviction or indictment, whether for a first or further offence. The actual penalty imposed in any given case is, of course, entirely within the discretion of the trying court, which normally takes account of previous convictions.

Mr. Parker: Is the Minister aware there is a great feeling that the law is not being properly enforced?

Mr. Strachey: It would be improper for me to comment on that.

Mr. Quintin Hogg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most people who have practical experience of dealing with these cases, on one side or the other, will support him in his decision?

Mr. Piratin: Can the Minister say in how many cases a sentence of more than one year has been imposed?

Mr. Strachey: Not without notice.

School Milk (Holidays)

Mr. Morley: asked the Minister of Food if he can make arrangements to have the children's school milk delivered at their homes during the holidays.

Mr. Strachey: I regret that this would make much too Leavy a demand on manpower.

SOAP COUPONS (CHILDREN)

Mr. Collins: asked the Minister of Food if the supply position will now enable him to extend the concession of extra soap coupons for babies, to children up to two years of age.

Mr. Symonds: asked the Minister of Food if he will extend from twelve to at least eighteen months the period during which the extra ration of soap is provided for babies.

Mr. Strachey: I am glad to say that the supply position now makes it just possible to extend the babies' extra soap coupons to children up to two years.

Mr. Collins: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this concession will be received with very great satisfaction?

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Why was it not possible to give this concession some six weeks ago when I asked that question? Were not babies just as dirty then as they are now?

Mr. Strachey: Soap supplies are improving a little.

INDUSTRIAL HEALTH RESEARCH BOARD

Mr. Erroll: asked the Lord President of the Council what is the total amount of Government grants given in the last four years to the Industrial Health Research Board; the number of reports issued during the same period; and what is the future policy for the Board.

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): The expenditure of the Medical Research Council on that part of their programme in which they are advised by their Industrial Health Research Board amounted to £161,520 over the last four financial years. During the same period 12 reports on this work were published officially, and 46 other reports as contributions to scientific journals. The policy is to continue the expansion which has already taken place on a considerable scale since the war.

Mr. Erroll: In view of the small number of reports issued, should not the slogan "Work or want" be applied to this august body?

Mr. Morrison: I think that that is a superficial observation.

Mr. Mikardo: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the reports issued by this body are of great value and are greatly appreciated by everybody in industry?

Mr. Morrison: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend, and I hope that what he has said will be noted by the hon. Member opposite.

WHALING (RESTRICTIONS)

Mr. Shepherd: asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps he is taking to secure the alteration of the international agreement restricting the killing of whales, in view of the difficult oil and fat position.

The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries (Mr. Thomas Williams): None, Sir. I am not satisfied that the limit can be relaxed without permanently endangering supplies of whale oil.

Mr. Shepherd: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that expert opinion, by no means ill-informed, does think it could take place as a temporary measure?

Mr. Williams: Yes, but this limit was imposed by international agreement on the advice of scientists who were of the opinion that stocks of whales were in danger of depletion.

Mr. Hogg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answer will give widespread satisfaction to whales throughout the world?

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE

Unregistered Veterinary Surgeons

Mr. G. Williams: asked the Minister of Agriculture when the Government expect to implement their intention to introduce legislation concerning unregistered veterinary surgeons on the lines proposed by the Chancellor Committee.

Mr. T. Williams: I am unable to say at present.

Mr. G. Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these unregistered veterinary surgeons are being victimised by this long delay, and will he hurry the matter up?

Mr. T. Williams: I could not agree with the hon. Gentleman more, but we have been in constant negotiation with the various interests, and I shall be as happy as he when it is possible to introduce the Measure.

Marketing (Lucas Committee's Report)

Mr. T. Reid: asked the Minister of Agriculture what action he proposes to take on the Lucas Committee's suggestions for the distribution of agricultural products with a view to reduction of costs.

Mr. T. Williams: The Committee were not charged with the duty of inquiring into wholesale and retail distribution, although inevitably a number of their recommendations touch upon those subjects. These and other recommendations are now under consideration by the Government.

Mr. Austin: In view of the great hardship suffered by the working class in not being able to obtain vegetables last summer, will my right hon. Friend see to it that, in the forthcoming season, vegetables and other products covered by this Committee's report will be controlled, with a view to their being available to the working class at reasonable prices?

Mr. Williams: I have already said that these recommendations are under consideration.

Mr. Vernon Bartlett: asked the Minister of Agriculture when he will be able to state the Government's plans in connection with the Lucas Committee's Report on the working of the Agricultural Marketing Acts.

Mr. Turton: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has now considered the Report of the Lucas Committee; and whether it is proposed to take any action thereon.

Mr. T. Williams: The Secretary of State for Scotland and I are considering in consultation with our colleagues the important recommendations contained in this Report, but I cannot say yet when I shall be able to make a statement.

Mr. Bartlett: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the Report does call attention to conditions which are very disheartening both to producers and consumers, and will he do all he can to hasten a decision?

Mr. Williams: Yes.

Mr. Turton: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that he dissociates himself from the prejudice against marketing boards displayed in the Report?

Mr. Williams: I should like to withhold judgment on that.

Allotments

Mrs. Ayrton Gould: asked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that many allotments which were used to grow fruit and vegetables during the war have been withdrawn by local authorities; and, in view of the present food shortage, will he reintroduce a national allotments policy.

Mr. T. Williams: Local authorities have found it necessary to release some wartime allotment sites when land has been required for special purposes, chiefly housing. The proportion, however, is not large. I have urged local authorities to retain wartime allotments whenever it is at all possible, especially in parks and sports fields. As the contribution of allotment holders to our food supply will continue to be of the highest importance, it remains my policy to maintain and encourage allotment cultivation, preferably on permanent sites.

Mrs. Ayrton Gould: Is my right hon. Friend aware that allotments have been taken away by local authorities because at some future time they will be used for other purposes—as, for instance, housing sites—but that there is no idea of using the ground for other purposes for the next year or two? Will he not send out another circular asking local authorities to give back the allotments for the next year or two wherever that is possible?

Mr. Williams: Circulars have already been sent to local authorities impressing on them that, where existing allotments are taken away, other allotments should be provided wherever possible for allotment holders who have been so displaced. I will send a copy of the latest circular to my hon. Friend.

Mr. Vane: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many allotments near London were not cultivated at all last year, and that it is a question of cultivating existing allotments before more land is taken?

Mr. Williams: Not in all cases.

Mr. John Hynd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his answer has not met the point, that a large number of allotment holders are being displaced, but that the allotment sites will not be used for other purposes for an indefinite period; and that, moreover, the losing of their allotments means to the holders a loss of capital, and costs them expense and inconvenience?

Mr. Williams: That is quite contrary to my wishes, and to the advice I have expressed to local authorities throughout the country.

Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Would my right hon. Friend try to persuade the Minister of Works to give the allotment holders in the Royal parks security of tenure for the next two or three years?

Mr. Williams: Perhaps my hon. Friend will put that question to the Minister of Works.

Potatoes (Storage)

Mr. Somerville Hastings: asked the Minister of Agriculture, whether by Press conference, broadcast, or other means, he will indicate to the public the best way in which potatoes that they have either grown or purchased may be stored for future use, so that there may be as little waste as possible.

Mr. T. Williams: "Dig for Victory" leaflet No. 13, a copy of which I am sending to my hon. Friend, contains advice on the best ways of storing potatoes and has already had a wide circulation. The national Press and gardening journals have also given publicity to the measures necessary to prevent waste in stored potatoes. I am arranging, however, for additional publicity on this subject.

Pig and Poultry Rations

Mr. Heathcoat Amory: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is yet in a position to indicate the scale of future pig and poultry rations so that farmers can plan ahead for maximum production.

Mr. T. Williams: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Parkin) on 17th November.

Mr. Amory: Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that the present arrangement is bad; that it is probable that we are not making the best use of even the present exiguous ration; and would it not be worth while thinking this matter out again to see whether he could find a better basis than the 1939 position?

Mr. Williams: If the hon. Member has any constructive suggestions to make, I shall be very ready to receive them.

Mr. Drayson: Is the Minister aware that his call to farmers to increase their pig stock has caused a great deal of confusion; and will he reconsider the position of tying the ration to the holding?

Mr. Williams: There is another Question on that subject on the Order Paper.

Livestock Disposal

Mr. Edward Evans: asked the Minister of Agriculture to what extent his periodical census of cattle and pigs reveal a growing black market in the disposal of these animals; and what steps he is taking to prevent this evil.

Mr. T. Williams: The periodical censuses of farm livestock afford no means of measuring the extent of such black market activities as may exist, but I have no evidence that farmers dispose of any significant proportion of their cattle and pigs through other than legitimate channels. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Food has already announced this afternoon the setting up, after consultation between us, of a special Committee to inquire into the illegal slaughter of animals for food.

Mr. Evans: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his action and statement will cause a great deal of satisfaction to those members of the farming community who are playing the game?

Mr. Orr-Ewing: Do I understand from the Minister's answer that he is in complete disagreement with the view expressed by the Minister of Food?

Mr. Williams: I said nothing of the kind. I am in complete agreement.

Agricultural Land, Foulness Island (Use)

Mr. Gunter: asked the Minister of Agriculture what acreage of good agricultural land on the island of Foulness, Essex, is not being used for agricultural purposes because it is in the possession of Service Departments.

Mr. T. Williams: Except for 180 acres in use by the Ministry of Supply, no agricultural land on Foulness Island is at present debarred from agricultural use. Of this 180 acres, l00 acres will be available for grazing from Michaelmas, 1948.

Cropping (Direction Powers)

Mr. Philips Price: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he intends to issue instructions to the county agricultural committees to use their powers of direction to secure an adequate cropping plan for this coming season.

Mr. T. Williams: I am hopeful that farmers will voluntarily grow the target acreages for essential crops for the 1948 harvest that have already been announced, and that it will be unnecessary to make use of cropping directions.

Mr. Philips Price: While agreeing with the Minister that voluntary methods are the best, I take it that he has power to use direction if necessary?

Mr. Williams: Oh, most certainly.

Sir W. Smithers: Will the Minister suggest to county agricultural committees that it is folly to insist on farmers growing certain crops on certain pieces of land, where the farmers themselves know they cannot be a success?

Mr. Williams: I can always rely upon the wisdom of county agricultural committees.

Sir W. Smithers: You cannot.

Poultry Rations

Mr. Collins: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the serious decline in the numbers of eggs delivered to packing stations, he will substitute for the 1939 basis for allocating poultry rations a system whereby the ration entitlement is related to actual deliveries of eggs to approved centres.

Mr. T. Williams: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) on 24th November.

Mr. Collins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the reply to which he refers was in respect of an increased ration, whereas this Question relates only to another method of distributing existing supplies of feedingstuffs; is he further aware that in some counties the average number of eggs per hen per annum to the packing stations is only 50; and will he, therefore, look into this matter again?

Mr. Williams: Large quantities of eggs are at present produced on little or no rations of feedingstuffs at all. It follows, therefore, that, without a large increase of feedingstuffs supplies, the use of deliveries of eggs as a basis for poultry rationing would always be at the expense of pig and poultry keepers, who rely mainly or wholly on poultry rations.

Land Commission (Constitution)

Lady Noel-Buxton: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is now in a position to announce the constitution of the Agricultural Land Commission and the Welsh Sub-Commission.

Mr. T. Williams: Yes, Sir. I am glad to say that Sir Frederick Burrows has accepted the chairmanship of the Agricultural Land Commission. There will, to start with, be four other members. Sir Bryner Jones will be the Welsh member, and will act as the deputy chairman of the main Commission and chairman of the Welsh Sub-Commission. The other members are the Hon. Geoffrey Bourke, Mr. Watson Jones and Sir Francis Wylie. The other members of the Welsh Sub-Commission are Colonel Llewellyn Humphreys, Mr. D. Morgan Rees and Colonel Wynne Finch. All the appointments will for the present be on a part-time basis, and the initial term of office will be for three years. I am circulating brief particulars about the members in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Commission and Sub-Commission will start work on 1st January, 1948

Mr. Vane: Which of the members of the English committee, except for the hon. Geoffrey Bourke, whose reputation is well known, have had any experience in the management of land?

Mr. Williams: All the members already chosen have experience of administration and management of things generally.

Following are the particulars of members:

AGRICULTURAL LAND COMMISSION

1. Sir Frederick John Burrows, G.C.I.E., Governor of Bengal, 1946–47. Former member of the Hereford War Agricultural Executive Committee. Past President of the National Union of Railwaymen. Previously, member of the Agricultural and Smallholdings Committee of the Herefordshire County Council, and of the Wye Catchment Board.

2. Sir Cadwaladr Bryner Jones, C.B., C.B.E. Previously Welsh Secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture, and liaison officer of the Minister in Wales. At present, chairman of the Montgomery War Agricultural Executive Committee.

3. The hon. Geoffrey J. Bourke, F.R.I.C.S., F.L.A.S., President of the Land Agents' Society; honorary secretary of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors; senior partner in Smiths Cars & Company, agents for the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England (Northern Division).

4. Mr. E. Watson Jones. At present member of the Shropshire War Agricultural Executive Committee, and chairman of the Cultivations Committee since 1939. Was a member of the Agricultural Goodwill Mission to America in 1943. Farms 2,400 acres in Shropshire and Staffordshire.

5. Sir Francis Verner Wylie, K.G.S.I., C.I.E. Governor of the United Provinces, India, 1945–47. Governor of Central Provinces and Berar, 1938–40, and Minister to Afghanistan, 1941–43.

WELSH SUB-SECTION

1. Colonel H. Llewelyn Humphreys, F.R.I.C.S., F.L.A.S. Member of the firm of Chartered Land Agents, Messrs. Llewelyn Humphreys & Company. Managing extensive properties in West Wales. Formerly in charge of Agricultural Production Planning in Germany.

2. Mr. D. Morgan Rees, J.P. Prominent large-scale arable farmer in Glamorgan. At present, chairman of the Glamorgan War Agricultural Executive Committee.

3. Colonel J. C. Wynne Finch, M.C. A prominent landowner and farmer on the Caernervon and Denbigh border. Member of the Hill Farming Advisory Committee. Member of the Welsh National Committee of the Forestry Commission.

Canadian Pedigree Cattle (Imports)

Mr. Turton: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will encourage the importation from Canada of a limited number of attested pedigree cattle during the year 1948.

Mr. T. Williams: The importation of cattle from Canada is subject only to veterinary requirements and to the conditions of the Importation of Canadian Cattle Order, 1933. But, in view of the currency position, I am not prepared to encourage such imports unless I am satisfied that they are essential for the maintenance or improvement in this country of the particular breed concerned.

Oral Answers to Questions — FORESTRY

Young Trees and Woodlands (Damage)

Mr. F. Noel-Baker: asked the Minister of Agriculture in view of the seasonal demand for Christmas trees and decorations, what steps he has taken to prevent damage to plantations of young trees and woodlands.

Mr. T. Williams: In addition to the normal protection given by the police, the Forestry Commission keep as close a watch as possible on all State woodlands. Warnings are published in the Press, and proceedings are taken against unauthorised persons found taking young trees, wood or foliage.

Mr. Noel-Baker: But in view of what happened at Christmas time last year, are special precautions being taken during the next few weeks?

Mr. Williams: Last season there were 43 cases in which offenders were prose in connection with the loss of young trees and holly from State plantations. In two cases sentences of six months imprisonment were imposed, and in other cases fines ranging from £1 to £50 or three months were imposed.

Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Can the Minister say how many prosecutions have taken

place this year in respect of thefts already committed?

Mr. Williams: Not without notice.

Forestry Commission (Programme)

Mr. Parker: asked the Minister of Agriculture the total areas purchased, felled, planted and replanted, respectively, in the last forest year by the Forestry Commission.

Mr. T. Williams: The figures for Great Britain are: purchased or leased, 22,916; felled, 719 acres; planted, 17,577 acres; replanted, 8,695 acres.

Mr. Parker: asked the Minister of Agriculture what area the Forestry Commission propose to purchase, fell, plant and replant in the current forest year.

Mr. T. Williams: It is proposed to plant 23,000 acres, to fell 704 acres, and to replant 13,000 acres. The present programme of the Forestry Commission would call for the acquisition of 179,000 acres in the current year, and as much of this area as possible will be acquired.

Mr. Parker: Would the Minister make it quite clear that there is no proposal to cut this programme in the present period of crisis?

Mr. Williams: There is certainly no proposal to cut the programme, although I am not sure that we shall be able to buy all the land we wish this year.

Mr. Orr-Ewing: Will the Minister give an assurance that this large planting programme does not endanger the proper care and maintenance of existing plantations?

Mr. Williams: I do not think that what we buy for future planting has anything to do with existing plantations.

DANISH BEER (IMPORTS)

Mr. William Paling: asked the Minister of Food the quantity and the value of beer imported annually from Denmark.

Mr. Strachey: Six thousand eight hundred and thirty-two bulk barrels of beer valued at £73,976 were imported from Denmark in the four months July to October of this year. These were the first imports of Danish beer since the war.

Mr. Hastings: Would it not be much wiser to import Danish food instead of beer?

Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir. Every ton of Danish food which is available at a price which can be agreed is imported.

Oral Answers to Questions — RAILWAYS

Workmen's Tickets

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: asked the Minister of Transport (1) whether he is taking any action to ensure that persons previously able to use workmen's tickets on suburban railway services and who are now unable to do so by reason of staggered hours arrangements, shall continue to have the advantage of the use of such tickets;
(2) whether he has considered the position of persons normally using workmen's tickets on suburban services of the main line railways who have found themselves unable to make use of these tickets by reason of an alteration of their hours of work; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. James Callaghan): Yes, Sir. I would refer the hon. Member to the statement attached to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend, the Member for Bexley (Mr. Bramall), on 1st December. I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Without wishing to trouble the Parliamentary Secretary to send me a copy of an answer I have already read, may I ask him if he can tell me whether that answer means that any person who previously was able to obtain these tickets, will now be able to obtain them on producing a certificate from his employer?

Mr. Callaghan: The hon. Member may have read the answer, but he quite clearly could not have understood it. It makes it quite clear that for all workers whose hours have been rearranged owing to power-load alterations, the revised conditions will be in their favour.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether that covers those people whose hours may have been changed only indirectly?

Mr. Callaghan: It covers those people affected by the alterations in the power-load which results in the staggering of their hours.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Directly or indirectly?

Half-Fares

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: asked the Minister of Transport whether he proposes to make arrangements to raise the age of entitlement to travel at half-fares to 15.

Mr. Callaghan: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave on 27th October to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Mr. Sharp). I am sending him a copy.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does that answer mean that the Parliamentary Secretary's mind has not moved since 27th October?

Mr. Callaghan: No, Sir; it means that the reply I gave then was perfectly satisfactory.

Automatic Fog Safety Device

Mr. Gunter: asked the Minister of Transport whether the new automatic fog safety device put into operation on 1st December on the Southend line has proved successful.

Mr. Callaghan: Yes, Sir. There were certain minor troubles, but I hope that they will be overcome.

Service, London—Manchester

Mr. Erroll: asked the Minister of Transport how many express passenger trains have been run on the L.M.S. railway between London and Manchester during the most recent convenient statistical period; and how many have arrived at their final destination on time.

Mr. Callaghan: During the four weeks ending 31st October, 149 out of 354 weekday express passenger trains from London arrived in Manchester on time; in the reverse direction, the figure was 188 out of 373.

Mr. Erroll: Can the Parliamentary Secretary arrange for the balance of trains to arrive on time?

Mr. Callaghan: I have great hopes of that after nationalisation day.

ROAD SCHEMES

Mr. Peart: asked the Minister of Transport if he will continue scheduled road schemes where the necessary road survey has been completed and there is availability of labour and raw material.

Mr. Callaghan: Road schemes are being reviewed because of the need to curtail capital investment, and many will be postponed; but individual decisions will take into account local factors.

Mr. Peart: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the decision of his right hon. Friend to postpone the West Cumberland road scheme has caused great disappointment? Will he see that the decision is reconsidered, in view of the importance of this road to the industrial economy of West Cumberland, and the fact that we have an antiquated railway system?

Mr. Callaghan: I do not think I can undertake to commit my right hon. Friend to reconsider the scheme at this stage. I emphasise that these are postponements and not abandonments.

Mr. Peart: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that we have the labour and raw materials available now, but that the situation may be very different 12 months hence? It may be disastrous.

Mr. Peart: asked the Minister of Transport what effects the cuts in capital expenditure will have on road schemes in the development areas.

Mr. Callaghan: Road schemes in development areas, and elsewhere, will necessarily be restricted in accordance with the general principles explained in Command Paper 7268. "Capital Investment in 1948."

Mr. Peart: Where it can be proved that a road scheme helps industrial development, as in the case of West Cumberland, will the Parliamentary Secretary reconsider the decision, as I pressed him to do on the previous Question?

Mr. Callaghan: That is too wide a definition. It must be directly related to the export drive, and not to the general advantages of capital development.

Mr. Vane: Will the Parliamentary Secretary reconsider his decision, because West Cumberland is off the main road and off the main railway? In these circumstances, will he have a little extra sympathy?

Mr. Callaghan: That is a fact which is fully appreciated. We hope that this will be a temporary postponement.

Mr. Peart: In view of West Cumberland's importance in the export drive, will the hon. Gentleman also consider it from that aspect?

Mr. Callaghan: Yes, Sir, if the roads will directly assist that drive.

Mr. Peart: They will.

Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Will the Parliamentary Secretary consider the even more important road proposals in Scotland?

Mr. Callaghan: If the hon. and gallant Member has read the White Paper, he will know that crofters' roads come in for special consideration.

Colonel Gomme-Duncan: I am not talking about crofters' roads, but about the Forth Bridge.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Motion made, and Question put,
That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting,

from the provisions of the standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. H. Morrison.]

The House divided: Ayes, 199; Noes, 88.

Division No. 42.]
AYES
[3.30 p.m.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Pearl, T. F.


Alpass, J. H.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)
Perrins, W.


Attewell, H. C.
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Piratin, P.


Austin, H. Lewis
Gunter, R. J.
Popplewell, E.


Ayles, W. H
Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Porter, E. (Warrington)


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B
Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil
Price, M. Philips


Bacon, Miss A.
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Proctor, W. T.


Balfour, A.
Hardy, E. A.
Pursey, Cmdr. H.


Bartlett, V.
Harrison, J.
Ranger, J.


Barton, C.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Rees-Williams, D. R.


Battley, J. R
Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Reid, T. (Swindon)


Bechervaise, A. E
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Rhodes, H.


Belcher, J. W.
Hewitson, Capt. M.
Ridealgh, Mrs. M


Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.
Hicks, G.
Robens, A.


Benson, G.
Hobson, C. R.
Rogers, G. H. R.


Beswick, F
Holman, P.
Sargood, R.


Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Shackleton, E. A. A.


Binns, J.
House, G.
Sharp, Granville


Blackburn, A. R.
Hoy, J.
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)


Bottomley, A. G.
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Shurmer, P.


Bowles, F. G (Nuneaton)
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.


Brown, George (Belper)
Hughes, H. D. (W'Iverh'pton, W.)
Skinnard, F. W.


Bruce, Maj. D. W. T
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Smith, Ellis (Stoke)


Buchanan, G.
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)


Burden, T. W
Irvine, A, J. (Liverpool, Edge Hill)
Snow, J. W.


Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.
Sparks, J. A.


Byers, Frank
Janner, B.
Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.


Callaghan, James
Jay, D. P. T.
Stross, Dr. B.


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Stubbs, A. E.


Chamberlain, R. A.
Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Sylvester, G. O.


Champion, A. J.
Jones, D. T (Hartlepool)
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Chater, D.
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Taylor, R.J. (Morpeth)


Cluse, W. S.
Key, C. W.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Cocks, F. S.
Kinley, J.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Coldrick, W.
Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Collick, P.
Lipson, D. L.
Thurtle, Ernest


Collindridge, F.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Titterington, M. F.


Collins, V. J.
Longden, F.
Tolley, L.


Cooper, Wing-Comdr, G.
Lyne, A. W.
Vernon, Maj. W. F.


Corvedale, Viscount
McAdam, W.
Viant, S. P.


Cove, W. G.
McEntee, V. La T.
Wadsworth, G.


Crossman, R. H. S.
McGhee, H. G.
Walker, G. H.


Daggar, G.
Mack, J. D.
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Daines, P.
Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Davies, Clement (Montgomery)
Mathers, Rt. Hon. George
Warbey, W. N.


Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Mellish, R. J.
Webb, M (Bradford, C.)


Deer, G.
Mikardo, Ian.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


de Freitas, Geoffrey
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Dodds, N. N.
Mitchison, G. R.
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.


Driberg, T. E. N.
Monslow, W.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Dugdale, J (W. Bromwich)
Morley, R.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Dumpleton, C. W.
Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)
Wilkins, W. A.


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Edelman, M.
Moyle, A.
Willey, O. G.(Cleveland)


Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)
Naylor, T. E.
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)



Neal, H. (Claycross)
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Evans, Albert (Islington, W.)
Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)
Willis, E.


Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Woodburn, A.


Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)
Wyatt, W.


Ewart, R.
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Wheatley, J. T. (Edinburgh E.)


Fernyhough, E.
O'Brien, T.
Yates, V. F.


Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
Orbach, M.
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Foot, M. M.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Zilliacus, K.


Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Parker, J.



Gibson, C. W.
Parkin, B. T.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Glanville, J. E. (Consett)
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Mr. Simmons and


Goodrich, H. E.
Pearson, A.
 Mr. Richard Adams.




NOES


Amory, D. Heathooai
Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)
Odey, G. W


Baldwin, A E
Harvey, Air-Comdre. A V
Peto, Brig. C. H. M


Beamish, Maj T. V. H
Haughton, S. G.
Pitman, I J


Birch, Nigel
Hogg, Hon. Q
Rayner, Brig. R


Bossom, A C
Howard, Hon. A.
Reid, Rt. Hon J S. C. (Hillhead)


Bower, N.
Jeffreys, General Sir G.
Robertson, Sir D (Streatham)


Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.
Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W
Robinson, Wing-Comdr Roland


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Langford-Holt, J.
Ropner, Col. L.


Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H
Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)


Bullock, Capt. M
Linstead, H. N.
Smith, E P. (Ashford)


Carson, E.
Lloyd, Major Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Smithers, Sir W


Channon, H.
Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)
Snadden, W. M.


Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.
Low, A. R. W
Spearman, A. C. M


Conant, Maj. R. J. E.
Lucas, Major Sir J.
Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.


Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C
Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.
Strauss, H G. (English Universities)


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
MacAndrew, Col. Sir C
Studholme, H. G.


Crowder, Capt. John E.
Macdonald, Sir P (I. of Wight)
Sutcliffe, H.


Cuthbert, W. Y
Mackeson, Brig. H. R.
Teeling, William


Darling, Sir W. Y
Maclay, Hon. J S.
Touche, G C.


De la Bère, R
MacLeod, J
Turton, R H.


Drayson, G. B.
Maitland, Comdr. J W.
Vane, W. M. F.


Eccles, D M.
Marples, A. E.
Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)


Eden, Rt. Hon. A.
Marsden, Capt. A.
White, J. B. (Canterbury)


Elliot, Rt. Hon Walter
Marshall, D (Bodmin)
Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)


Erroll, F. J
Medlicott, F.
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord


Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L
Mellor, Sir J.
Young, Sir A. S L (Partick)


Gage, C.
Molson, A. H. E



Gomme-Duncan, Col. A
Nicholson, G.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Gridley, Sir A.
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.
Mr. Drewe and


Grimston, R V.
Nutting, Anthony
 Commander Agnew


Hannon. Sir P. (Moseley)
Orr-Ewing, I. L



Question put, and agreed to.

Orders of the Day — NEW ZEALAND CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL [Lords]

Order for Second Reading read.

3.39 P.m.

The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
No lengthy explanation or supporting argument is required about this Bill. It speaks for itself, and if there were any doubt about its purpose or meaning it would be removed by the Explanatory Memorandum. In 1852, Parliament conferred a Constitution on New Zealand creating self-governing institutions. The Act limited the power of New Zealand to amend the Constitution. Another Act in 1857 made some changes, but left intact some of the limitations on this right to amend the Constitution. Those limitations were still retained at the desire of New Zealand by Section 8 of the Statute of Westminster, which was passed by this Parliament in 1931. The New Zealand Parliament now desire us to remove these limitations, and to give full power to amend their Constitution in any way they please. A few weeks ago, they passed a Request and Consent Act to that effect, and it now remains for us to do our part by the adoption of this Bill.
The Bill comes to us from another place, where it was adopted in a single sitting, with the unanimous and warm approval of all who spoke from all quarters of the House. I cannot believe that any hon. Member of this House will desire to impede its passage or to refuse the New Zealand Parliament what they ask. The Bill removes what all now recognise to be an arrangement that is out-of-date. New Zealand is a member of the Commonwealth, equal in status and rights to all the rest. It is the proper business of the New Zealand people to decide what their institutions shall be and how they shall be made to work. No one in a foreign country, however hostile they may be, could pretend that this will weaken the ties that unite New Zealand and the other nations of the British Commonwealth.
In presenting their legislation a little while ago, the New Zealand Government laid before their Parliament a White Paper in which they said that the sole purpose of their act was to give them the full legislative capacity which every self-Governing member of the British Commonwealth possessed. The Paper went on to say that the people of New Zealand had proved, not only by the day-to-day actions of the Government and the attitude of New Zealand during two great wars, but also by the actions of private individuals and groups, the recognition of independence on the one hand, and interdependence in the Commonwealth on the other, as "part of our national way of thinking and feeling."
The Prime Minister of New Zealand said, in moving the legislation, that if it were to lessen the tie between New Zealand and the Empire, he would have nothing to do with it, but, in his opinion, if it were adopted, it would strengthen the tie to the advantage of all. We have seen, in two wars, New Zealand ready to stand with us against aggression to support the rule of law and to defend the principles of liberty and justice for which the Commonwealth stands. This Bill comes I think very opportunely at the present time. It is one more proof to the outside world that the British Commonwealth stands for Parliamentary democracy and for the full untramelled freedom of those who work for it. I hope that the outside world will mark, learn and understand that, as we now rectify an anachronism, we all feel that the bonds between New Zealand and ourselves are closer than they have ever been before.

3.43 p.m.

Mr. Oliver Stanley: Certainly, we, on this side of the House, will welcome and facilitate the passage of this small Bill. Clearly, it is something for which New Zealand has the right to ask, and, if New Zealand asks, we have a duty to give. As I understand it, this Bill is only necessary because, at the time of the Statute of Westminster, New Zealand herself asked that these limitations should be continued, and, of course, as we acceded to that request then, so we accede gladly to the opposite request today. I am sure that all of us will feel with the Prime Minister of New Zealand that this little bit of machinery can have no effect whatsoever upon the ties which bind New Zealand to us.
If we can throw our minds back over a long period—95 years—when the Constitution Act on which New Zealand still relies was first passed, I think that we can all feel that whatever high hopes the authors of that Measure had in 1852, the results have exceeded their wildest expectations. In two great wars we have received their loyal and courageous support, and also in time of peace whenever we have been in difficulties. All the affection they bear for us makes New Zealand one of the best loved in this country of our sister Dominions. We in this House, I am sure, will grant this small request, only wishing that it were in our power to give a more material and permanent token of the gratitude we bear to that country.

3.45 P.m.

Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: We get so very few opportunities in this House of paying our tribute to this very great and very gallant Dominion, that I personally am very glad to be able to add a few words in support of this Bill. It is with very deep feeling that I speak, because I have spent four periods in New Zealand, I know it pretty intimately, and I have had the very great advantage and privilege of enjoying the kindness and hospitality of New Zealanders throughout that country. During a period of illness, I was nursed back to health by their kind ministrations, and so I have, perhaps, special reason to thank them. I do not think that people in this country can realise, unless they have lived in New Zealand, the regard and affection in which this country and all its people are regarded by the New Zealanders. It is something very remarkable and it is, perhaps, not equalled anywhere else in the world; certainly it is nowhere exceeded.
This gallant little Dominion, with a population which, I think, is still less than 2,000,000, has stood by us valiantly in war and in peace. In the late war, she had no fewer than 205,000 men and women in the Forces out of that quite small population. Her casualties numbered rather more than 10,000 dead and nearly double that number wounded. In the matter of supplies, particularly food, she not only gave us of her best and of her bounty, but also helped us by a careful stabilisation of prices, so that the burden was not unduly heavy on us in those difficult years.
Since the war, she has similarly stood by us in all our difficulties; and, again, in the matter of food she has helped us enormously by control and by stabilisation of prices. She has to the utmost increased her exports to this country, and she has taken measures for the speedy turn-round of ships; and—I think a very important matter at this time—she has kept to a minimum her dollar expenditure, and deliberately done so to help the old country. I think that we should also remember the magnificent free gift of £10 million sterling which was made to this country at the beginning of this year. I understand that the assistance which she has given us in the way of food parcels—very important in these days—totals no fewer than 1,000,000.
I have two references to that distant period, 95 years ago, in the year 1852, which are apposite. In the Queen's Speech, opening the 1852 Session, Her Majesty spoke of the fact that
no obstacle any longer exists to the enjoyment of representative institutions by New Zealand.
It is also interesting to recall that in the Debate in 1852, Mr. Gladstone referred to the people of New Zealand as
exceeded by none in their known worthiness to receive and their perfect competence to exercise political privileges.
In conclusion I would like to re-echo those words of Mr. Gladstone's 95 years ago by adapting them and by saying that the people of New Zealand are "exceeded by none in their known worthiness to receive and their perfect competence to exercise" —I would add these words— "complete political freedom." I have the greatest pleasure in strongly and warmly supporting this Measure.

3.50 p.m.

Sir Patrick Hannon: I should like to endorse everything that has been said by the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Chamberlain) about the Dominion of New Zealand, and I should like to call the attention of the House to the part New Zealand played in the dangerous and difficult times before the first world war in its concept of the responsibilities of our Dominions in regard to the maintenance of our sea power in the face of an expectant enemy. In those times when we were struggling to keep our sea power in such a state that it would be capable of meeting any enemy, no


Dominion made a more substantial or inspiring contribution than New Zealand. I happened to be Secretary of the Navy League at that time, and some of my hon. Friends will remember that in New Zealand we established branches of the Navy League in almost every small village and municipality. In those days we were fighting the battle of supremacy and were trying to secure an ultimate superiority.
New Zealand always made an immediate and responsive reply to the people of this country. I sent out to New Zealand in those days—I am speaking now of 1912 to 1914—something like 300 or 400 maps of the British Empire indicating the basis upon which our sea power could be maintained. No Dominion was more responsive in the maintenance of that fine principle of our existence than New Zealand. At the close of the first world war we had an immense demonstration to the people of this country in the contribution that the New Zealanders made for the welfare of our ex-Servicemen. They sent us, I think, nearly half a million pounds for the maintenance of our postwar services for discharged Servicemen, and in those days particularly the work of the British Legion enjoyed their support.
This House ought to be proud to acknowledge the part New Zealand played as a constituent part of our Commonwealth and we should be glad to pay her a tribute for the services rendered, her example, her leadership, her contribution to the success of our sea power and the loyalty and devotion of her people to everything that is best in the Commonwealth.

3.54 P.m.

Captain Marsden: I am glad to assure my hon. Friend the Member for Moseley (Sir. P. Hannon), as one who is on the Executive Committee of the Navy League today, that New Zealand is just as keen now as she was in those days to which he referred. Since the first days when New Zealand was discovered by the Royal Navy—it was by Captain Cook—her people have appreciated the power of the sea. The original Colony, and later the Dominion, was helped and maintained by the Navy. There are only two points I should like to make in general appreciation of this Dominion which is shared by all parts of the House. The Minister gave two reasons why New Zealand came into the last two big wars to help. Was not the

reason that the Mother country was fighting and the Dominion of New Zealand wanted no other reason than that we were at war? That is the attitude of that wonderful Dominion and the wonderful people who live there.
I should like to make one other comment. I do not pretend to be so up to date in many of our Colonial and Dominion affairs as other hon. Members, but surely I am right in thinking that the political situation in New Zealand as between the original inhabitants of the land and those who come into it later is beyond compare in any other country. The Maoris have played a full part in the administration of the country and they have occupied some of the highest Ministerial posts. Can any other country in any land show such similar close cooperation between two races? I do not think so. Even if they could, New Zealand shows the way. If New Zealand wants some alteration in its code to govern its own land let it have it. It will make no difference whatsoever in its affection and respect for this country which is the Motherland.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House for Tomorrow.—[Mr. Simmons.]

FINANCE BILL

As amended, considered.

CLAUSE 5.—(Increase of rates of Purchase Tax.)

3.55 P.m.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): I beg to move in page 3, line 13, at the end, to insert:
and, where the tax becomes due on or after the ninth day of December, nineteen hundred and forty-seven, shall not affect—

(a)electric dry batteries; or
(b)accumulators, being accumulators suitable for use with wireless receiving sets of the domestic or portable type."
The effect of this Amendment is that wireless and battery accumulators, which under a Budget Resolution of this Bill as it stands would fall to pay Purchase Tax at the rate of 50 per cent., will revert to the old rate of 33⅓ per cent. I should in all fairness to the House point out that this change cannot be dated to 13th November, but will run as from 8th of


this month. In the interregnum any batteries or accumulators disposed of by retailers will, I am sorry to say, have to pay 50 per cent.
The House will remember that on the Committee stage representations were made to my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer from every quarter of the Committee that this tax should not be raised with the others, on the ground that, particularly in rural areas, there were many people upon whom the tax would bear very hardly. The right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) said that if my right hon. and learned Friend met the House in this matter it would be the last demand that they would make under this Clause of the Bill. My right hon. and learned Friend undertook to look at it without making any comments or commitment, and I am delighted to think that he has agreed to make this change. The cost will be about £1 million in a full year.

Mr. Oliver Stanley: We are very grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for having met this point, which was put to him from all sides of the Committee and with particular force from those who represent agricultural districts. We quite understand that the complexity of the case prevents the dating back, and we are prepared to put up with the small hardship which may be incurred by some because of that. Normally I should have thought it unnecessary to say any more or to add any further embellishment or embroidery, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given us to understand that future concessions are to be determined not so much on the merits of each case as on the flattery which the Government receive. In fact, not guns but butter has got to be the weapon of Members in the future.
So in order to get the matter straight on the record, I should like to declare that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in accepting this Amendment has shown courage, wisdom and humanity, all the qualities of statesmanship. I should like further to say that the learned Solicitor-General, when he gave some strong reasons for resisting this Amendment, showed the same courage, the same wisdom and the same humanity, in fact, the same qualities of statesmanship. In order that there may be no ill feeling I should

like to add that we are all certain that had the occasion demanded it, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury would have shown the same courage, the same wisdom and the same humanity—the same qualities of statesmanship—either in accepting or rejecting the Amendment as the case might be.

4.0 p.m.

Mr. Douglas Marshall: I take this opportunity of thanking the Chancellor for putting this Amendment on the Paper. At the same time, I would once more direct his attention to the fact that I made the plea for removal of tax on these dry batteries on the first main Budget that came in at the beginning of the year. In making his statement during the Committee stage, the Chancellor said that between now and next year, he would review many matters with regard to Purchase Tax. I sincerely trust that, having regard to the shortage of amenities in the countryside, he will give his attention to the complete removal of the application of this tax to these batteries. I thank him for the consideration which he has already given to the matter.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 8.—(Interest on unpaid Income tax, profits tax and excess profits tax.)

Mr. David Eccles: I beg to move, in page 5, line 16, to leave out from "date," to the end of the line, and to insert:
when the assessment or direction becomes final and conclusive.
When we discussed this Amendment upon the Committee stage we were left in doubt about when the tax would be payable. The Financial Secretary promised to look at the matter again, and I think there is nothing I need do now other than to say that we want a clear definition of when the tax becomes payable. We think the words we propose would put the matter beyond all doubt, and we should be grateful if the situation could now be cleared up.

Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I beg to second the Amendment.
I am rather disappointed that the Financial Secretary has not seen fit to attempt to clarify the Clause at this stage. In the Debate in Committee he


said that the effect of the Amendment would be:
that the date at which interest on unpaid tax becomes chargeable would be that at which the assessment of tax becomes final and conclusive.
A little later on, he said that he would give an assurance:
that if an appeal is lodged, the time will not begin to run until that appeal has been settled and agreement has been reached between the Inland Revenue authorities and the individual concerned."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd December, 1947; Vol. 445, c. 447.]
I submit that neither of those two statements appears in the Clause as it stands. If what the right hon. Gentleman said is a sort of administrative undertaking and is the way the Inland Revenue authorities will view the Clause, that is one thing, but the taxpayer has not the protection of the wording of the Clause, as it stands.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I cannot help thinking that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are under some misapprehension in this matter. My right hon. and learned Friend wishes to be fair to the individual taxpayer, who, under Schedule D, may find himself liable to pay interest on arrears which have been outstanding for mare than three months and are more than £1,000 at that time. Believe me, there is nothing which I said on the Committee Stage that I have to retract. The difference between "final and conclusive" and "due and payable" is clear. When an assessment is raised, 21 days are given for an appeal to be lodged. If no appeal is lodged at the end of that period, that assessment becomes, in law, final and conclusive, but that does not necessarily mean that it then becomes due and payable.
These demands are normally levied as at 1st January and 1st July and are split into two instalments. If we accepted the Amendment, it would mean that, more often than not, the amount would become due directly it became final and conclusive. If the tax is overdue, obviously the final and conclusive date might well coincide with the due and payable date, but normally the two are different, and the due and payable date is later than the final and conclusive date. I hope I have made that point clear. I would add that my right hon. and learned Friend has no desire to harry people who have not had their assessments made final and conclusive. If appeals are lodged, the time will not begin to run against them

until agreement has been come to between the individual or company concerned and the inspector of taxes in whose district that individual or company is situated. I hope that, with that assurance, the Amendment will not be pressed.

Mr. Stanley: I am not sure that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury quite appreciates the reasons for which we have put down the Amendment again. It all depends upon a point which was raised later in the Debate by my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Joynson-Hicks). The Solicitor-General gave an assurance as to the way in which this matter would operate, and the assurance fully satisfied the desires of hon. Members on this side. My hon. Friend the Member for Chichester raised the simple point whether the legal effect of the words "due and payable" in the Bill was such that it might exclude the administrative interpretation which the Solicitor-General, to the satisfaction of all of us, was going to put upon them. The Solicitor-General promised to look into the matter before the Report stage. We have put the Amendment down in order that he might have this opportunity either to give us that assurance or to suggest other words.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Frank Soskice): I am sorry that I was not in the House when the Debate started on this point, as to which I have given an assurance. Since giving that assurance I have considered whether, within the wording in the present form, we can do —and I am satisfied that we can—what I said. I said that we have this arrangement for, in effect, a provisional set off, within which the tax will operate—

Mr. Stanley: I fancy that the Solicitor-General is speaking to the wrong Amendment. We are on the "due and payable" Amendment.

The Solicitor-General: That is right. I was asked by an hon. Friend of the right hon. Gentleman whether I was quite clear in my mind that we could operate this arrangement within the wording of the Clause. I am quite satisfied that we can, and my reason for saying so is that if there had been an arrangement for a provisional set-off of that kind the tax debt in question cannot be said to be payable within the meaning of the words "due and payable." It may be "due"


but it has not yet become "payable" because there has been an arrangement for a provisional set-off. [Interruption.] If I am talking about the same Amendment, I am quite clear that we can implement the arrangement I said would be implemented. If I have butted into the middle of another Debate and have misunderstood what is going on, I am extremely sorry.

Mr. Stanley: I would refer the hon. and learned Gentleman to column 447 of the OFFICIAL REPORT. That is the point we are now discussing. It does not seem to me to raise this question of a set-off; that is raised in the next Amendment.

Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: With regard to this Amendment which deals with the words "due and payable," the Financial Secretary suggested a moment ago that if there was an appeal, interest would not begin to run until there had been agreement with regard to the assessment. Does that also include the case where there has not been agreement and the matter has gone right up through the normal channels of appeal? Is it correct that interest will not run until the date of the final decision, which may be that of the House of Lords?

The Solicitor-General: In the case of an appeal, interest will not run until the appeal has been finally disposed of.

Mr. Joynson-Hicks: That does not quite clear up the point of the undertaking given by the Financial Secretary on the Committee stage. When the Financial Secretary was speaking on the Second Reading I interjected a question to him to ask for greater clarification as to the interpretation of the time from which interest would begin to run. The right hon. Gentleman then said words to the effect that it would not begin to run until the assessment had been agreed between the Inland Revenue and the taxpayer. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) confirmed that by an interjection at that moment. The Financial Secretary will see it in HANSARD. He said:
When it is agreed?
The Financial Secretary replied:
Yes."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1947; Vol.
444, c. 1821.]
He referred to the matter again on the Committee stage, and again the Financial

Secretary gave his interpretation to the effect that the words "due and payable" were synonymous with the intention of the Government that interest should not begin to run until the assessment and its pay-ability had been agreed between the parties. Our point was to obtain confirmation from the Solicitor-General that to the legal as well as the lay mind the words "due and payable" could be interpreted by the courts, and would be interpreted, as meaning when agreement was reached between the parties. To me, at any rate, the words "due and payable" do not necessarily connote the necessity of waiting until the parties have agreed as to the amount of the assessment.

The Solicitor-General: With the leave of the House I will reply to that. We were at cross purposes. The Amendment on which I was speaking is a subsequent Amendment put down by the hon. and gallant Member for Antrim (Major Haughton) which is designed to bring about, as it were, an inter-tax inter-year set-off. When I intervened I had in mind that Amendment. I am sorry that I spoke to the wrong Amendment; it was because I did not hear the earlier course of the Debate.
4.15 p.m.
The words "due and payable" quite clearly provide for this. Where there is no appeal, we must have a final assessment which in the ordinary course would be when the parties had agreed what the amount should be. Only when they have agreed and in consequence a final assessment has been made, will the interest begin to run. In cases where there is an appeal, the interest will not run in relation to any part of the tax which is disputed —which is the subject of the appeal—until the appeal has been finally disposed of. In other words, before any interest begins to run we must have a final assessment. In the event of there being any difference of opinion as to what the amount will be, the final assessment can obviously only be arrived at after the parties have come to agreement. If they cannot come to an agreement and a final assessment cannot be obtained and an appeal is begun, the interest will not begin to run until the appeal has been disposed of.
I think that answers the hon. Gentleman. I am quite clear in my mind that before money can be "due" or "pay-


able" there must be either a final assessment or a final appeal. If, therefore, any amount is still subject to an appeal it is not "due and payable." If it is subject to discussion and there has been no final assessment, it is not "payable," and it there is discussion between the parties and they cannot agree, obviously the assessment is subject to appeal and, therefore, the interest does not begin to run until the amount has been finally settled on appeal. What I said when I first rose was wholly inapposite as it was directed to a subsequent Amendment.

Major Haughton: This is rather a technical point. I think I am right in saying that the definition of "final appeal" will have to be made more clear. Any district inspector furnishes the taxpayer with a final appeal with the words "final appeal" written across it, although there may be a dispute going on between the parties.

The Solicitor-General: The hon. and gallant Member for Antrim (Major Haughton) is confusing the words "final notice" and "final appeal."

Mr. Eccles: In view of the Solicitor-General's reply, which appears to interpret the words precisely as my hon. Friends desire, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Stanley: I beg to move, in page 6, to leave out lines 14 to 31.
This is a case where we slightly reverse the usual process. I am now moving an Amendment to which the Solicitor-General has already given an answer. This Amendment has been put down for the same purpose as the last one, to give the Solicitor-General an opportunity of reporting to the House a matter he promised to consider. He gave to us on this question of the "set-off" what appeared to be a perfectly satisfactory definition of how it was going to be used, but some of us, including myself, had considerable doubts whether lines 14 to 31 would not prevent him putting that reasonable interpretation into operation. He promised to consider the matter before the Report stage, and I gather from the answer he has already given that having considered it, he feels that these words are not contradicted by the interpretation that has been given and the assurances, which we were glad to receive.

The Solicitor-General: As I intimated earlier, I have carefully considered that point and am quite satisfied that it may be done within the meaning of the Clause as it is at present drafted. I can give a quite categorical assurance that the scheme which I outlined will be implemented by the Revenue authorities.

Mr. Stanley: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Major Haughton: I beg to move, in page 7, line 12, at the end, to insert:
(8) The Commissioners of Inland Revenue may withdraw any claim in respect of interest on proof by the person by whom the tax is payable that non-payment of the tax or delay in payment of the tax was due to delays which were beyond the control of that person.
This Amendment is a simple and, I hope, desirable one. It merely suggests that there shall be a measure of discretion given to the Commissioners to waive interest in those cases where they are satisfied that the delay is caused because of reasons for which the taxpayer cannot be responsible.

The Solicitor-General: This is an Amendment which I think was put down previously in exactly similar terms—

Mr. Stanley: No.

The Solicitor-General: But there is a slight alteration, and I would repeat what I said then. If, and in so far as the tax is not assessed owing to causes which the taxpayer cannot control, or if for any other causes, whether he can control them or not, it is not assessed, no interest begins to run. The Amendment would appear to include the case of non-payment owing to any causes which were beyond the control of the person who is assessed. That is going a great deal too far. It would include the case of the taxpayer who, owing to circumstances which he cannot control, has not the money to pay, and that is a concession we could not possibly consider giving. In so far as there is delay in assessment, and whether or not that is the fault of the taxpayer or anybody else, the interest does not begin to run, but if the hon. and gallant Gentleman seeks by this Amendment to ask for something more extensive than that, we must watch carefully how we go, and we could not accept the Amendment in the general terms in which it is proposed.

Mr. Stanley: I would point out to the Solicitor-General that this does not impose a duty on the Commissioners to make such a concession; it only gives them the right to do it if they so wish. Therefore, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue would remain fully masters of the position. As the learned Solicitor-General recognises, of course, this is a different Amendment from that to which he gave an answer on the Committee stage. In fact, it has been altered to meet the point he made and to cover a point which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman) but which the Solicitor-General pointed out would be outside the scope of the Amendment. The hon. Member for Bath instanced the case where a cheque or money order had been despatched, but had been stolen in transit, and asked whether that was not a case where the Commissioners might well say that this was beyond the control of the man who was to be charged with interest and they might, therefore, waive the claim. This is not mandatory, it imposes no obligation on the Commissioners; it merely gives them a discretion which they can use if a case arises where they think it should be exercised.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: As the right hon. Gentleman knows very well—he sat on this side of the House for many years—the Inland Revenue has a certain discretion and uses it, and in the view of my right hon. and learned Friend it would be unwise now to start putting discretions of that kind into a Bill of this sort.

Mr. Stanley: They have discretion?

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Oh, yes. Where obviously it is commonsense to use their discretion to waive certain rights which the Inland Revenue has, they would exercise it under the general supervision of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They have done so in the past and will continue to do it.

Amendment negatived.

Bill to be read the Third time Tomorrow.

MANDATED AND TRUST TERRITORIES [MONEY]

Resolution reported:
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision as to the application and modification of enactments in

relation to mandates of the League of Nations and the trusteeship system of the United Nations, it is expedient to authorise the imposition of any charge on public funds which may result from any provision made by the said Act—

(a) as to the manner in which enactments are to apply, or may be modified, where a territory becomes a trust territory, or a change in the authority responsible for administering a trust territory takes place on its becoming a trust territory or while it is a trust territory; or
(b) as to the effect, since the termination of the League of Nations, of references in enactments to mandated territories; including any provision made as aforesaid with retrospective effect from any date not earlier than that of the termination of the League of Nations."

WAYS AND MEANS [5th December]

MANDATED AND TRUST TERRITORIES

Resolution reported:
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision as to the application and modification of enactments in relation to mandates of the League of Nations and the trusteeship system of the United Nations, it is expedient to authorise the imposition of any charge on the people which may result from any provision made by the said Act—

(a) as to the manner in which enactments are to apply, or may be modified, where a territory becomes a trust territory, or a change in the authority responsible for administering a trust territory takes place on its becoming a trust territory or while it is a trust territory; or
(b) as to the effect, since the termination of the League of Nations, of references in enactments to mandated territories; including any provision made as aforesaid with retrospective effect from any date not earlier than that of the termination of the League of Nations."

MANDATED AND TRUST TERRITORIES BILL [Lords]

Considered in Committee.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

CLAUSE 1.—(Application and modification of enactments.)

Amendment made: In page 1, line 21, at beginning insert:
(5) Subject to the last foregoing subsection, this Act shall apply to, and an Order in Council there under may modify, an enactment


notwithstanding that the effect is to impose a charge on the people or on public funds." —[Mr. Rees-Williams.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, with an Amendment; as amended, considered; read the Third time and passed, with an Amendment.

PENSIONS (GOVERNORS OF DOMINIONS, &c.) [MONEY]

Resolution reported:
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the Pensions (Governors of Dominions, &amp;c.) Acts, 1911 to 1936, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums payable out of such moneys under the said Acts or under the Superannuation Acts, being an increase attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session—

(a) enabling a Governor to retire on pension at the age of fifty-five instead of the age of sixty;
(b) increasing the amount of a Governor's pension by not more than one pound for each month's service of any Class (including service already rendered by a Governor now in office);
(c) raising the limits imposed by the said Acts of 1911 to 1936 on the amount of a Governor's pension, and on the amount of such a pension taken together with any other pension in respect of employment in the service of the Crown, by not more than three hundred pounds;
(d) repealing so much of Section nine of the Pensions (Governors of Dominions, &amp;c.) Act, 1911, and of Section three of the Pensions (Governors of Dominions, &amp;c.) Act, 1929 (which enable pensions to be granted in certain special cases to Governors who have not attained the ordinary retiring age), as requires a deduction to be made in a pension granted under either of these Sections "

PENSIONS (GOVERNORS OF DOMINIONS, &c.) BILL

Considered in Committee.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2.—(Increase of rates of Governors' tensions.)

4.28 p.m.

The Chairman: As there are a number of consequential Amendments, they might

properly be discussed together, if the Committee agrees.

Mr. Oliver Stanley: I beg to move, in page 2, line 24, to leave out from beginning, to end of line 27, and to insert, "by one pound."
This and the next two Amendments are consequential on this one, and it will be for the convenience of the Committee if we discuss them together. The purpose is very simple. Whereas under the existing Bill there is a differentiation made in the increase to Class I and II and Class III and IV governors, if this Amendment were accepted, it would mean that all governors of all four classes would be treated alike, and each would receive a pound a year extra for every completed month of service as a governor. I referred to this in the Debate on the Second Reading, and made the point, which I think a good one, that very often it is the Class III and IV governors, who never get to the big territories with big salaries and expenses, who on retirement are the worst off, and are most in need of this extra help. It is also very often in regard to governors of that class that the Secretary of State has the hardest decision to make between another appointment and putting them on the retired list. I hope the hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept this Amendment.

4.30 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Rees-Williams): My right hon. Friend and I have considered this Amendment, which we think is a good one. We are grateful to the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) for raising this matter on Second reading. The change will mean an addition from the Exchequer of £500 a year, but we think the reasons the right hon. Gentleman has given far outweighs this small additional charge. I will give one or two cases showing how it will work out. A governor who serves the normal period of five years in Class III receives £240. Our original proposal would have raised it to £270, and the present proposal would raise it to £300 a year. A governor who serves five years in Class IV now receives £180; the original proposal would bring it up to £210, and this proposal would bring it to £240 a year. A governor appointed at 50 to a Class IV post, having already earned a pension of £850 a year in a Civil


Service post, will now qualify for a pension of £1,090. I think that will meet the views of the Committee as a whole.

Mr. Stanley: May I express thanks to the hon. Gentleman for accepting this Amendment which, I am sure, will be of advantage to some of the most hard worked people in the service.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In line 33, leave out "four pounds, ten shillings," and insert "five pounds."

In line 34, leave out "three pounds, ten shillings," and insert "four pounds."—[Mr. Stanley.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3.—(Repeal of provisions for reducing amount of pensions payable in special cases.)

The Chairman: I am sorry, but the Amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) in page 2, line 38, at the beginning to insert
Section four of the principal Act (which contains provisions fixing the maximum amount of pension) and.
is out of Order, as being in excess of the Money Resolution.

Mr. Stanley: I bow, of course, to your Ruling, Major Milner, but I should like to know whether that Ruling also applies to the new Clause which has been put down in the name of the Secretary of State for the Colonies?

The Chairman: No.

Mr. Stanley: As that new Clause covers exactly the same point as would be covered in my Amendment, and as the new Clause is in Order and my Amendment out of Order, I shall be only too glad to wait until we reach the new Clause.

The Chairman: The distinction is that the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment does not come within the terms of the Money Resolution as it removes the maximum altogether, whereas the new Clause comes within the terms of the Money Resolution as it only increases the amount by the permitted sum, £300.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Increase of maximum amount of Governors' pensions.)

As respects any pension granted under the principal Act after the passing of this Act Subsection (1) of Section four of that Act (which specifies the maximum yearly amount of a pension under that Act), and Subsection (2) of that Section (which restricts the right of a person who is in receipt of any other pension in respect of employment in the service of the Crown to receive a pension under the principal Act or the full amount thereof), shall have effect with the substitution, for each reference therein to two thousand pounds, of a reference to two thousand three hundred pounds.—[Mr. Rees-Williams.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Rees-Williams: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
This new Clause covers the same point as that contained in the Amendment which has been ruled out of Order, or substantially the same point. The ceiling which is the subject of this new Clause has always been calculated on two-thirds of the salary which a Permanent Under-Secretary of State in this country would get after some 40 years in the Service. The original ceiling which that calculation gave was £1,300, and, at a later stage, when the salary of the Permanent Under-Secretary was increased to £3,000 the new ceiling on the two-thirds basis became £2,000. Today the salary of the Permanent Under-Secretary is £3,500, which gives a percentage on a two-thirds basis of £2,333. So the governor today is being placed on the same basis, if the Committee accept this proposal, as a Permanent Under-Secretary, except for £33, and an ambassador. They are all equated together. We suggest that this increase will meet all the cases which the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) had in mind when he raised the point on Second Reading. We are very grateful to him for raising it, and feel that it will now obviate any case of a governor, serving, perhaps three or four years towards the end of his period of service, and getting no greater result as to his pension than if he had not served at all.

Mr. Stanley: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he has met us on this point. I have no complaint to make that whereas my Amendment proposed to do away with the limit altogether this proposal will increase the limit in proportion to the increases which


have taken place in the pension. Quite clearly of the two the hon. Gentleman's method is the more logical, and I agree that it will cover most, if not all, the cases I had in mind. I am extremely grateful to the Government for accepting this suggestion.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

SCHEDULE.—(Enactments repealed.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this be the Schedule to the Bill."

Mr. Stanley: Will not a consequential Amendment be required following on the new Clause?

Mr. Rees-Williams: I understand that what the right hon. Gentleman was pro-

posing to do was to repeal Section 4 of the principal Act. We are proposing to amend it, as it has been amended in previous legislation. In other words this is amending the amount, and I am advised that there is no need for any consequential Amendment.

Schedule agreed to.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended considered; read the Third time, and passed.

ADJOURNMENT

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Pearson.]

Adjourned accordingly at Nineteen Minutes to Five o'Clock.